Same for me, too. A working saddle. But I did opt for a half-breed. I wasn't able to have him measure on the horse, and that worries me a little. My mare is big and most say "full QH." Did you get 90 or 93 width?

raftermk,
are you talking about the steve cooper in riverton?

yea but i dont know if he makes the saddle or just sold my grandpa a really nice one someone else made. I know he works with leather.

I would like to know who makes a very high quality working saddle for a fair price. i don't want excessive silver or tooling, just a good saddle. I can't afford collectors prices. -Phillip

Is $3600 the base price??? That seems like a lot to me. -Phillip

Well, it IS a lot, but it's comparable for a well made custom built saddle.

For less expensive non-custom made saddles, you might check out National Ropers Supply or Smith Brothers. They seem to have some pretty decent saddles . . .

Well, I've gotta spend what I've gotta spend. I guess there is a lot of work in a saddle like that.

-Phillip

raftermk;
he just makes chaps but he does have quite a few saddles from other makers. i went into his store one time and he told me about a pair of shotguns he was making for a person in georgia, they had a 36in thigh!

kentuckydiesel;
$3600 is kind of in the middle for the better makers plain saddles. you can probably find one for $2500 if you keep your eyes open. the thing to rember is that for better or worse you are buying their name as well as their product and if you want their product you have to pay for their name.
liam

kentuckydiesel,

If you are willing to wait 1-2 years for a saddle, Mark Byrum at High Plains Saddlery is an excellent saddle maker. His list is getting longer and longer though. I believe you can get a rough out from him for around $2600 (gave or take). He can get Girtch trees also, big plus (sorry if I spelled his name wrong). Mark is an excellent tooler also. Mark's information is at www.highplainsaddlery.com.

If you want a saddle sooner, I just got my new saddle from Cody Sand in Forbes ND. His base is about $2100. He is very talented also. He started out on his own and then worked some with Mark Byrum. He is now on his own and is putting a out a real good quality saddle. He is a bit of a perfectionist and dosen't gave himself the credit he deserves on his tooling. you can e-mail me at bschopf2280@yahoo.com if you would like Cody's information. If would put it on the post but I can't get a hold of him to see if it's all right.

I would say Shawn Kramer also(ND boy)I think he starts at around $1500 basics plus-skies the limit I suppose.I know I would sure like one of his saddles!

i am interested in looking into a plantation saddle, or something light like that. ive been researching the custom tree and saddle co. i checked out some of their saddles on "www.steelsaddle.com" one of the members in my riding club has a saddle like these and he swears by it. does anyone else know about these or know of another saddle maker i can check into?

I have a question for flynsaddle or anyone else who would like to answer: All I have are 90 degree saddles and I was wondering if 93s feel wider than the 90s or is the groundseat shaved down a little more so it doesn't feel wider? Paul

Howdy Paul;

In a slight way the seat will be a little wider with 93* bars, I will shave as much material as possible to give the narrowest(is that a word?) seat as possible, but you can only go as narrow as the tree allows. It is not that much of differance in the feel of the groundseat.

Thanks flynsaddle, I was thinking about trading in one of my 90's but I wasn't sure about how a 93 might ride. I get along pretty well with the ones I have but ocasionally I run into that horse that's just too round for my 90s. Paul

I hate to share negative news, but to help others potentially avoid what I'm experiencing, I'm sharing my unfortunate story with ordering a saddle from Robert Chavez of R C Saddle Co: The contract due date for my fully paid for saddle was July 10th, 2004 and I still don't have it. Needless to say, after 2 yrs & 4 mo of unfullfilled promises, I'm baffled and confused to say the least. He's obviously delivering product to customers who have only paid a deposit, but for some reason can't get around to delivering mine. My Legal Counsel is advising me to file a complaint for 'theft by fraud' with the Kern Co prosecutor office which I'm now in the process of doing.

I'd be very interested to know if anyone else was offered a deal for free tack with advance payment in full? Is so, did he deliver?

Shawn Kramer does really good work. I have a Wade the I had Brian Costagno of Snowville, UT make. Great work, great saddle, fair price.

Hey Rocky,

I'm not sure if I read your post correctly, but were you told there would be a two year wait and it's been a few months past that... or have you been waiting for two plus years past the original due date?

did Robert offer you any kind of explanation? I don't know Robert myself but know a few people who know him personally as well as a few others who have gotten saddles from him in the past and they all speak well of him.

If he has offered you a reasonable explanation, I would try to be patient... as a saddlemaker myself, I can tell you that orders can really start to pile up and start to wreak havoc with your delivery dates. Many things can happen to delay delivery... some things like getting a tree are ultimately out of control of the saddlemaker... Even though it seems to reasonable to assume you could get a tree in two years, the way things actually happen make it difficult. Most saddlemakers can only get a couple of trees a month from their treemaker and after ordering the tree, usually have to wait anywhere from three to seven months for the delivery of the tree. If Robert told you the wait would be two years, he probably wouldn't be able to order your tree until four or five months before the order was due because he'd still be waiting for trees for previous orders. This is a frustrating process that can often make it difficult to keep deadlines...especially if the treemaker gets behind... If his explanation was to that effect, you can believe it's true.

A couple of full carved floral saddles ahead of your order can also start to take longer then anticipated and put you behind as well. Combined with a late tree delivery and trying to predict how fast you can make two years worth of saddles... you can see how it would be easy to get a few months behind on orders.

If he is two plus years past the original due date, then I'd sure want one heck of an explanation!

Not saying any of the above applies, but I'd sure try to work things out instead of getting any authorities involved.

Darc

[ October 18, 2006, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: D.A. Kabatoff ]

Im related to some Costagno out of Utah. Thats funny.

Dont file anything with a court just call the man yourself. If you do that and you sue for more than whats just all your doing is causing problems for him, and you could run him out of saddle making and cut some people out of the opportunity to buy some really nice saddles. get your money back from him and go to another saddle maker. Or did i hear you say that it was a promise for a free saddle. If its that he doesnt owe you a thing. He could have been kidding.

Darc,

Thank you for your commnets & perspectives. I think I understand what you are saying and your questions. I'd like to share some facts to clarify the situation. The last thing I want to do is give someone a hard way to go for no reason.

I ordered my saddle in Nov,2003 with an $1100 deposit expecting a 12-13 month delivery time. In March, 2004, Robert called me offering a reduced lead time & additional tack (at no additional cost) for payment in full. He indicated he was making this offer to others on his waiting list in hopes he could raise money to purchase 5 acres joining his property. I paid the balance ($2090) for my saddle and we both signed a contract in April 2004 with a DUE date Robert set for 7/10/2004 for delivery.

After 18 months (beyond due date) of what seemed to be legimate reasons for delay (remodeling shop, back ordered hardware, stirrups, leather etc), my patience became stretched as I discovered he was delivering to other customers who placed orders after mine. The primary difference I think being, they hadn't paid in full.

Confronting him with my disappointment and confusion has produced a number of apologies, and new promises for delivery. He also indicated numerous times my saddle was nearly done.

.... Unfortunately, none of the commitments came true which prompted me to send a certified letter in early Sept, 2006 asking for a refund or delivery by mid Sept. I also let him know that this was his last chance. He called indicating he understood and agreed with my position and indicated he'd have it ready to ship by Sept 20th. Sept came and went w/o hearing from him so I called and he said he'd call me with a tracking number number by Oct. 13th as the saddle was done. It's still not shipped, but after so many failed commitments, his credibility with me is gone.

I suspect there are others who are in the same boat as myself if they paid in full also. It was probably a foolish thing for me to do, but I trusted his reputation, the contract he offered, and just my sense that he was a trustworthy guy from talking to him by phone.

The outstanding workmanship in his products speak clearly of his talent and his satisfied customers do likewise for his ability to deliver when he's motivated to do so. I'm speculating that being 'paid in full' eliminated his motivation. As for whether I've been sufficiently patient with him or not ... all I can do is let the facts speak for themselves. 2 yrs 11 months from original order or 2 yrs & 4 mo of waiting AFTER due date. ... Go figure!! Either way, seems like an awful lot to me.

I don't think he's left me with many options if I want to see my saddle or a refund.

Regards,
RR

Missed his ship date by a year or more???? Sorry but there's no excuse for that. Zero. Totally unacceptable for a guy running a business to take advantage of his customers that way. In light of the way word of mouth spreads in the horse world, you would have to wonder why a saddle maker would damage his reputation like that. If I were in the same situation I'd take legal action at this point.

When I ordered mine, I was told it would be done by Feb 1. The maker told me about mid Jan that he was behind and I probably wouldn't get it until May 1. I told him it wasn't a problem and ewhen the saddle was shipped he included a matching breast collar because I waited patiently.

How close are you to this maker? If it is within a half a day's drive, I would drop in on him and talk face to face and get it straightened out. Either he has it done or he is yanking your chain.

Likewise with mine. I ordered it in the spring, he told me he'd have the tree by mid summer and build the saddle in Sept. He called me the last week of August and said he was ready to start it. It shipped at the end of Sept.

rocky rider; at first i thought you were just another litiguous, conniving easterner, with no understanding of how the "handmade" and "western" world worked. i'm sorry. it looks like you have a legitimate complaint. give him hell!
liam

Rocky Rider, thanks for writing. I, too, have a past-due saddle by Robert Chavez. Not as bad as yours. I ordered in January 2006 with delivery noted as "usually a year, I'll let you know the due date." He called in March and said he could deliver in July if I paid more. Excited, I did. July came and went, I received apologies and drilled him pretty hard on his saddle producing rate and my new promise date. He told me he had the tree and all materials, would start on 9/15 and it would be available by 10/31. I've been patient and not called, because he seemed so sincere, but if you haven't gotten your saddle yet, this isn't looking good for me.

I think I'll email him tonight and see what the status is.

jan

Not knowing anything else about the above mentioned saddle maker, I would have to say that this looks like it is becoming a repeating pattern. The best indicator of future performace is past performances.

Just a thought here, does anybody have this guy's email? If they do maybe a cut and paste of this conversation could be sent to him as a wake up call. In business a bad word travels farther and faster than a good word.

NW, I thought about doing that, but wanted to wait to hear from Rocky Rider. I'd hate to jeopardize any actions he has already initiated.

I emailed Robert to ask if my saddle was on track for delivery at the end of the month. In the past, he'd take a few days to respond.

Robert is a really, really nice guy. He is not the gruff craftsman that doesn't have time for folks not sure of what they want. He spent 4+ hours with me at his shop (I drove there, about 2 hours away) helping me design the saddle and answered all my questions on the pluses and minuses of each feature. I am sure that took a lot of patience on his part.

Hoping to hear positive news from either Rocky Rider or Robert in the next week. If not, maybe I'll drive up there and check things out.

jan

I am in the process of having a custom saddle made. One of the first things I did was take my horse to the "tree" maker to have the tree fitted to my horse. If the tree doesn't fit -the saddle sure won't! I realize not everyone can go to the tree maker but I am also sure that the saddle maker only orders standard trees so how does that translate to a "custom" fit? Or is the fit (horse) an issue in custom saddlery?

Last year I had a custom saddle made for my horse from Veach Saddlery in Trenton MO - saddle maker Craig Robertson, grandson to Monroe Veach. Craig brought out several trees and fitted them on my horse. Once he found the correct tree, he ordered it. This is where the time element was, getting the tree made and shipped.

I was very lucky, it only took about 4 months to get my saddle.

Trail Rider,

I thought about having the tree fitted to the horse, but it is very impractical for me, as the tree-maker he uses is in another state.

Then I rationalized that maybe I didn't need tree-fitting in a western saddle, as my horse would likely muscle differently throughout her life/each year, and I should aim for a more generic fit to take those changes into account.

So, in my instance, the only custom part is my selection of saddle style (Wade) and the fun things for me.

I hate saddle-fitting (I mainly ride english), and have seen perfectly fitted english saddles, flocked to perfection, etc, not work out. My western friends have had custom western saddles with tree-fitting (Jerimiah Watt), that ultimately didn't work out (and he's a great saddlemaker).

Not sure what to make of all of it all; seems to be a throw of the dice half the time!

jan

What I think is really important that when a person gets a saddle made, it should not be horse specific, it should be type spedific. If a saddle is made for a certain horse, it is possible that the horse could die before the saddle comes. I think it is much more important to have a saddle that fits the type of horses a person rides. If you ride thorough bred type horses, get a saddle to fit them. If you ride bulldog type quarter horses, get a saddle to fit them. There is no generic one size fits all saddle.

"Originally posted by jan martin:
I ordered in January 2006 with delivery noted as "usually a year, I'll let you know the due date." He called in March and said he could deliver in July if I paid more."

Is it just me or does anyone else have a problem with this? So in other words, he really does not have a schedule of building saddles in the order he received the orders?? If I order a $4000 saddle he'll work on it until someone comes along and pays him to build a $5000 saddle, then my order gets shoved to the back of the shop? Sorry folks but that's a load of BS where I come from. This guy is taking people for a ride. Nice guy or not, I'd be paying him a visit with a big 'ol can of whoop-a**.

Ranchroper--you are right on. I have felt that from the start of this disscussion. All I know is that I couldn't recommend this saddle maker to anybody.

I tested a spur maker this summer. When I talked to him about getting my order in, I asked him if I could get them faster if I paid more. He said absolutely not. I then told him I was just checking his integrity. I told him that if he said he would have taken more to jump my order, I wouldn't have placed my order.

[ October 23, 2006, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: NW ]

I had a similar experience with custom spurs recently. Ordered a pair of E Garcia's thru a dealer. I won't name the dealer because he was just as frustrated with the maker as I was. Long story short; took almost 1 yr to get spurs that were promised in 6-8 weeks. Part of that time was taken up with sending the wrong ones back and correcting the order (wanted rust/got blued, wanted 21 point rowel/got 12 point, wanted silver rowel discs/got none, etc). I love the spurs now that I got what I want, but it sure leaves a bad taste & you get gun shy about putting out your hard earned cash for things with lead times. I don't know Robt Chavez from anybody, and maybe he has stuff going on in his life that mess with his schedules; but in business, your reputation is everything, and you wear it wherever you go. Honor your comittments or don't make 'em.

I've had some good luck contacting a 'mass producer' and giving specific directions as to what I wanted. I was able to get the shape and brand of tree I wanted, the size seat, extra long stirrup leater and no tooling. Dang near a custom saddle for half the price in half the time.

This will probably sound pretty naive of me, but the reputation that I hold of saddlemakers is from my friends' experience and it kinda goes like this: they are craftsmen, not businessmen, thus they can't quote accurate lead times and they can't manage their cash flow very well.

They also get orders from folks who order before they have finished saving for their saddle, hence the saddlemaker knows he can skip over them to take on the full-paying customer who can pay the bill.

I would love to have saddlemakers follow the same standard that we hold ourselves too, but doing so won't result in a saddle; just the prospect of getting on the bottom of someone else's two year waitlist and starting over.

jan

My opinion is the friend who is saying an artisan is not a businessman is speaking hog wash – that is an excuse. Our friend the saddle maker might be offended to say he is not a businessman too.

To put that into perspective is to say a rancher is not a businessman; a farmer is not a businessman. Heck, Mom’s and the kid selling lemonade on the corner are businessmen.

I look at this issue as someone taking advantage of a situation and not respecting the individual who is paying them. Who on this site (Mom’s, cowboys’ etc.) hasn’t worked however long it takes to get the job done.

Now, I am not a saddle maker, I can’t even draw, but if I were and saw that, I might be offended.

Whew,,, I feel better,,, just my opinion, thanks!

Even as a part-time saddle maker and sole proprietor of a one-man shop, let me tell ya, I'm a businessman. I'm also a salesman, stock clerk, bookkeeper, accountant, website designer, janitor, ordering agent/buyer, receiving/ shipping clerk, mail clerk, manufacturing engineer and efficiency consultant, not to mention chief cook and bottle washer.

Of course, it's no different than any other one-man shop regardless of the product or service. And if I don't do a reasonably good job of handling all those functions, I won't be in business for long, unless I can hire people to perform them. But, I'd still have to supervise them, know their jobs as well as they do, train them, hire them and maybe fire them and then end up having to hire someone to replace them and then hire more people to do the hiring and firing......
Ah hell. I'll just do it all myself.

Jan,

You are right that Robert is really a nice guy. Like many others, I'm convinced he's also a great saddle maker and earned his reputation by putting his skills to work and treating people right ... if they haven't paid in full that is.

Be that as it may, I think you have a much better chance of collecting a saddle than I do as it's only a 2 hour drive for you to meet with him face to face. But that's what I'd recommend doing if he misses the Oct 31st date you mentiioned earlier. Otherwise, 3 months could become 3 years as is happening to me.

Living in Indiana, driving isn't an option for me and I simply can't afford to fly out and risk a dry run. Hard to say how many times he's sold a saddle intended for me to someone else, but that's what it feels like every time I hear someone else say they've received a saddle ordered long after I paid for mine.

I'd be interested in comparing details off-line if you are so inclined. My email address is: mark.l.cummins@cummins.com If not, I understand and wish you all the best in collecting your saddle. ... And if you do end up visiting his shop, I'd be grateful if you'd ask to see mine. I'd just like to know if it really exists. It's a half breed (rough out seat & fenders)with SS hardware and should have a silver engraved plate on the back of the cantle with my name on it.

Regards

Hi Mark,

I tried your email, but it bounces, even when I do a cut and paste. Try sending it again? I'd be happy to help in any way I can and I'll sure look for your saddle at Robert's place.

jan

With regard to the comment that a saddlemaker would be insulted to be considered an inept businessman -- I agree! But it sure seems of the three saddlemakers I know, none of them delivered on time, most 6 months past due. Maybe its a Caliornia thing <g>!

Jan,

Sorry for your difficulty. I'm not sure why it would be bouncing back. My email address is: mark.l.burkman@cummins.com Of if you care to call, my cell is: 812-343-5077.

Thank you,
Mark