Steve recently answered some questions regarding tree and saddle fitting and I can honestly say that I feel your pain Steve everytime those questions come up. I don't think there is an easy way to answer them unless someone is in front of you and you can show them a tree.

I'm going to try and drive home some of Steve's points with the use of a few photos I have of a tree. One photo shows a fork stock thickness of about 4 1/2"s, measured from the back of the fork to the front (a wade tree is 5"s). Another photo is of the tree showing a gullet width at the front of 6 1/4"s. The last photo shows a ruler behind the fork with a measurement of just under 4"s; this is called the handhole width and for reference is normally measured before the rawhide is put on a tree. To give the best fit for the majority of western style horses, the handhole width should be 4"s wide. Everything forward of the handhole width can be considered bar flare and is there to prevent the bars from interfering with the shoulders. If you look at the photo showing the gullet width, you can see the bars flaring outward as they come forward from the area the handhole width was measured. This is important because the further forward the bars come, the wider the gullet width becomes. If you take two trees from the same maker, one being a Wade with a stock thickness of 5"s and the other being a 3B with a stock thickness of 4"s and both have a 4" handhole width, if they both have the same style of bar, they will fit identically but the tree with the 5" stock thickness will have a gullet measurement approximately 1/4" wider than the other tree. This is simply because the fork-stock thickness is longer from front to back so the bar has more length through the gullet to flare.

This essentially means that the gullet width does not affect fit the way people assume it does. What does affect fit is how wide the handhole width is. For colts and narrow withered horses, a handhole width of 3 3/4"s is appropriate. You could use a 4" handhole width and add an extra blanket to get the correct fit. For heavier horses a handhole width of 4 1/4"s is appropriate and again the saddle could be fitted to a typical horses back by adding a blanket. When people ask about the gullet width, I tell them that if the handhole width is correct for the style of horses being ridden, the gullet width will be what it will be.

If anyone wants to give Flynn a migraine, ask him to explain which is a better assesment of the actual room in the seat... the seat length measurement or thigh length measurement.

Darc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D.A. Kabatoff:
[QB]If anyone wants to give Flynn a migraine, ask him to explain which is a better assesment of the actual room in the seat... the seat length measurement or thigh length measurement.
___________________________________

Or how about belly to horn clearance measurement? Now, *that's* important.

that's nice but what i want to know is How Did You Get The Pictures On Here?

Ditto; Liam if you figure it out post a pic of your saddle...

Displaying Images
To add a graphic within your message, just type:.

In the example above, the UBBCode™ automatically makes the graphic visible in your message. Note: the "http://" part of the URL is REQUIRED for the [img] code. Also note: some UBB forums may disable the [img] tag support to prevent objectionable images from being viewed.

[ May 05, 2006, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Go2tex ]

Uh...ya...okay

jes like this.....

Or maybe you'd prefer this............

Maybe this is more to your liking.........

OK, posting pics for dummies 101.

step 1. type [img] including the brackets.
step 2. type the URL address of the pic
including http://. like this:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ranchhouse/images/...kelstein_03.jpg
step 3. type [/img]

You can get the URl address of any image by right clicking on the image and then click properties. Copy and paste the URL address that is listed. It can be on your own website or anywhere.

Thanks....nice saddle

nice looking saddle Go2tex...who made that one? Now, that we've all had the picture posting seminar, anyone else got photos of their favorite rigs. The picture below is one I sold not long ago.

Hey Flynn, what're you working on these days?





[ May 06, 2006, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: D.A. Kabatoff ]

here are a couple wades I finished up not long ago.


let me know if the photos don't work, if they do i'll try get some tree oics on here to show you guys some info.

Nice looking saddles Steve, those Rod's or Glenn's trees in there?

Hey Liam,

posting pics is easy but you have to have them on the internet somewhere to be able to do it.

Most internet providers give you a little web space to post pictures, etc... figuring out how to use it is a whole new ball of wax.

Once you have your photos on the internet all you do is click on the "image" button below the box you type your message in (under where it says "Instant UBB Code). It will ask you for the internet address of where your photo is posted and it will do the rest for you.

If you don't have anywhere on the internet where your photo is posted you are S.O.L.

If it helps, you could email me your photo and I can post it for you.

D.

Darc, they are both on christman trees, I really am liking his work. the ruff out is an order and the border stamp I made to take to the kamloops show, it's still in the shop looking for a good home. I saw that rig of yours on ebay, look just awesome, very nice balanced lines to it. Just a real classy looking rig. the majority of the saddles that I build do not have 8 button seats and exposed leathers, but it seems like i'm getting more orders that way now. there fun to build and it make no differance to their useability (is that a word?) I like the lines on you seat jockey. thanks for helping out with the tree talk and the photos.

Go2tex, you are also doing some fine work, thats a good look carve job you did.

Thanks. It's one of my recent creations. Sold it to a guy in Germany. That chestnut and rawhide works real well together.

Darc, I saw your rig on Ebay too and was really impressed. You'll recall I emailed you about the border tool? I'm heading to Wyoming tomorrow for Saddle Week 3 and maybe I can find one like yours.

Maybe I'll run into you guys in Sheridan.

Hey Steve,

I know what you mean about Glenn's trees. There's a few guys around making decent trees that I wouldn't hesitate to use, but Glenn's are just a bit more refined. He always puts nice lines in the forks and the lighter weight is nice too. Great guy to talk to as well, usually figure on an hour or more everytime I talk to him.

I've always liked the look of eight string seats but I get the odd person worried about raking their legs on the second string. If a guy gets it in the right position there really are no problems. Your saddle with the bucking rolls illustrates this point quite well.

The tree talk can really wear you down after a while, but I think it's really important with all the confusing information out there to take the time to explain this stuff. Sounds like you have a good grasp of the stuff and I think alot of people really appreciate it when you take the time to explain it. I think Rod and Denise Nikkel have really done a good job of educating saddlemakers.

Hey Go2tex, that's some really nice carving on that saddle. I didn't realize that was you asking about that tool... I actually tried finding your email address a few weeks ago... I think Bob Beard may be making that border tool. I got some bevellers from him a few weeks ago and saw in his catalog a tool that looked almost identical. If you see him in Sheridan, I think he calls them keyhole tools. Make sure you try a few out though cause like I said before it can be a really fussy tool if it wasn't cut just right. Wish I could make it to Sheridan this year cause I'm having a hard time finding some tools I need, just don't have the time to drive there. I'd probably never make it out of Don King's museum anyway and miss the whole show!

Darc

Hi Guys,
Just wanted to drop a line and say all three of you are making some pretty darn nice looking saddles. The craftsmanship, lines and styling are all top notch. Anyone should be proud to own such a rig. Keep up the good work.
John
www.cowboycompany.com

i appreciate that Mr. Kabatoff, we are going to be branding today, maybe i can get some good pictures to post.
liam

howdy;

looks like my picture is gone now, I'll try figure out how to get them on again tomorrow, I would like to get some tree photos to help illustrate some of the tree talk. I'm off to run a tractor for another 12 hours today...man that's a boring way to spend my weekend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by D.A. Kabatoff:
[QB].........I think Bob Beard may be making that border tool. I got some bevellers from him a few weeks ago and saw in his catalog a tool that looked almost identical. If you see him in Sheridan, I think he calls them keyhole tools.
------------------
Hey Darc, just got back from Sheridan with my head so full of stuff I don't know where to start! Did the Saddle Week 3 with Don Butler and Al Gould. Man, words can't describe how much I enjoyed it and how much I learned from those 2 guys. Met lots of folks in the trade and spent a fortune at the show! Bob Beard was one of them and yes, I saw his keyhole tools but with his long backlog, I decided to get one from Barry King that looks very similar to yours. It'll do for now, I think. Thanks for the help, though.

All I can say is, ya shoulda been there! It was a blast. I'm already planning my entry for '07.

Hey Brent,

I'm jealous...would have loved to've made it to Sheridan this year. Probably saved myself a bunch of money, but love the atmosphere there. Don King's reception is the best part. How are Barry King's hand tools? I've got some of his stamping tools but haven't seen his new hand tools yet. Didn't realize he was making a keyhole tool... none of these guys ever have all their tools listed in their catalogs.

It's great seeing how other saddlemakers do things at those seminars. You think you have a great way of doing things and you see someone else do it in a quicker, easier fashion and it makes you wonder what else you're missing. I'm going to Oklahoma in September; Dale Harwood and Steve Mecum are doing a seminar before the TCAA auction. I think it'll be an unbelievable opportunity, seeing Dale Harwood make a saddle.

Darc

p.s. Hey Bob, thanks for the heads-up for the Landis and Randall parts on Ebay.

Go2tex, I am also jealous, I got some calls from old friends in sheridan but I just couldn't swing it this year. That show is simply just a great experiance all around, I'm sure the opportunity to see how butler builds a rig will help you in the future, I know it would help me. It is pretty easy to spend some money at that show, did Bob Douglas have his usual collection of tools old and new? Did you see anything at the show that stood out from all else?

Darc; I am also jealous of you going the seminar with harwood and mecum. It will be just an unbelievable learning experiance. Harwood is just as good as a instructor as he is saddle maker. One of the things that amazed me most about Harwood is how he is the most efficant saddle maker I have seen. He can build a saddle faster with no wasted shop moves, time delays, now waiting for glue to dry etc. while still building some of the very best saddles made. It is very inspiring to see him work let alone looking at his finished product. I'm sure you will get a pile of good info and technices from both harwood and mecum. I am also a huge Steve Mecum fan, he builds some very nice rigs with great lines and equal carving. I wish I was going with you. Oh well, I will wait for a report.

In answer to the question about Barry King's hand tools, I didn't really take a good look. Probably should have but at the time I was more interested in the stamping stuff. I get focused.

Douglas tools was well represented as usual. There was practically a line waiting just to get into his room! I did pick up a set of his rivet setters.

Can't say that any one thing in particular stood out from the rest. I was impressed with all of it but come to think of it, Jeremiah Watt tools really impressed me. He puts a surgical edge on those things and the feel of the wood is excellent.

I will say that aside from the vast array of products and instruction available at the show and during the week, the atmosphere of comraderie and just plain friendliness was a real pleasure. I hope my impression was not the result of a relative newcomer's naivete.

Now, speakin' of jealous....about that Harwood/Mecum seminar.....was this by invite only, or how does one get on the mailing list??? hmmm???? ...eh, not that I'm tryin' to horn in on you boys, but eh, you did bring it up. heh heh.

Hey Steve,

I know what you mean about Dale, it's inspiring watching someone work with that kind of efficiency and be able to turn out the quality as well. Here's a link to a page that has a small video of Dale doing some floral carving. It'd take me an hour or more to do what he does in 5 minutes.

http://www.westernfolklife.org/site/batr/t...php#DaleHarwood

Brent, if you want to get into that seminar, you'll have to talk to a man named Ghandi Puhdar... he resides on a mountain top in eastern Tibet. If he can't help you, you're out of luck.

Actually, it's being put on by the TCAA; I managed to get on the waiting list before it was even announced. When it was announced, the waiting list was already so long that it was too late to get in if you weren't on the list. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Got a couple of bisonette edgers from Jeremiah, was he at the show? Like the tools but sharpening the damn things is near impossible. Got a set of concord edgers from Bob Douglas and now I don't use anything else. It was the same thing last year, everyone rushes over to Bob's booth to try and get the old tools or new ones with handles that match the tools they already have. By the time I found his booth I probably missed half of what he started with.

The commradarie there is unbelievable. I showed up at Don Kings back door (in the alley between the store front and shop) with a Landis 3 and a Randall stitcher the day of his reception. Within a minute I had Don King and about 7 other saddlemakers around the van checking them out, having a beer, and giving their two cents worth on the machines. Love that weekend!

Darc

Thanks for the video link! That was really a cool clip. Well done too. To see his work up close like that explains a lot, like, why mine looks like cr*p compared to his.....

By the way, I talked to Puhdar and he sends his blessings and a reminder to wear your new tennis shoes for the trip to meet the mother ship..... not sure what he meant.

I didn't see Jeremiah at the booth. Having not met him, I could bump into him and not know it. I'm not planning on having to sharpen his tools though for some time. If they're that hard, they should hold an edge long enough for me to find someone who can put a good edge on them for me. Maybe I'll give Jeremiah a call and ask him how to do it.

You mean that old wood rasp won't do it? heheh