I was reading a post in the other section about wild horses/mustangs. Somebody mentioned Monty Roberts. We saw him a few years back & what a disappointment. All the hype about his natural ability to "join-up" with horses was just that; hype. The part that struck me odd was when he turned to the crowd and told them to be quiet & stop talking, because he must have absolute quiet to achieve "join-up". What a load of hogwash. Nothing more than just a guy working in a round pen doing what any of us do when we get a new horse. Then he proceeded to trash Buck Brannaman during intermission while he peddled his join-up merchandise.
As far as horsemen go, I'd put my money on Buck Brannaman, Joe Wolter or Ray Hunt any day. If any of you have not seen Bill Dorrance's book "True Horsemanship Through Feel", it's excellent. In addition, I might add that we throughly enjoyed a Pat Parelli clinic last summer as well. There's lots of Parelli bashers around, because he's more commercial with his whole package, and more of a showman about it all, but the underlying message is the same: work on your relationship with your horse & the rest will follow. No matter how it's delivered, I think that's a good message.
Monty Roberts? Don't waste your money.

Ranch Roper...
interesting post!!! i've attended a john lyons weekend, and also kenny harlow. both, i gained a lot of information from. I really really loved seeing Lynn Palm at expo--realizing, that i'm not breaking babies, she had a lot to offer me, and since we both have dressage in our backgrounds, we spoke the same language.

one of the things i noticed at the different clinicians, is the "gimmicks"--you need MY bit, bridle, halter, wand(what wand? it's a dressage whip!!) to achieve this....that was what i liked about lynn...she was very straightforward. yes she had her booth where she sold her books, but nothing was "you need this"....

betsey

We've seen a "double certified" John Lyons trainer (won't name names), and she was VERY rough with the horses. I have not seen Lyons but I suspect she was not a true representation of what he preaches. It makes me wonder how many people take a course like that and then corrupt it with the same garbage they were inflicting on horses before. Some people were just meant to own a dirt bike I guess...

Here's my two bits on the horse trainers.

We saw Monte Roberts a couple of years ago when he came around our way. I think he is very capable at what he does and if he has done nothing else for the horse world, he has enlightened the masses to a different way of working with horses.

I think Parelli is also very good at what he does and again he has shown a great number of people a different way to deal with horses.

Clinton Anderson and Dennis Reis are also very good at what they do and again there are thousands of people who have been exposed to modern horsemanship because of these people.

That said, I can't stand listening to any of these people anymore. People go to their two or four hour shows thinking they are clinics. They're not clinics, these are shows meant to get you interested in their systems whereby you will buy their overpriced tools, videos, buckets and hoof picks and then sign up for their two or three day clinics with their local certified clinicians. These expositions are certainly valuable and informative but I can just see people going home and standing on the back of their horse cracking a whip or trying to load a claustrophobic horse into a trailer without having all the knowledge they need to do this effectively and safely for themselves and the horses.

I've watched all the above names as they grew in popularity turn from capable horsemen that I could relate to, into marketing machines that I can't be bothered to listen to.

Who the hell can understand Parelli's six games with the four P's with seven ways of something or another. I could care less about Monte's new miracle halter that releases pressure most of the time if you wiggle your rope the right way. Clinton, well what can you say...anyone who teachs you how to stand on your horse's back and crack a whip must be worth listening to.

The last person I saw on Rfdtv that I could stand to watch was Richard Winters. That was about six months ago and at that time he still talked like a regular guy. Gave you the complete lesson without over complicating it or talking to you like you're a three year old. I suspect as he grows in popularity he'll become like all the rest. Guess these people are just trying to make a living.

I think that all these people serve a useful purpose, but I also think that if you look around where you live, there are many capable people who are willing to teach you valuable lessons without selling you a bucket with their logo on it.

Darc

[ May 29, 2006, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: D.A. Kabatoff ]

Darc--
i've never been to a parelli outing, and have heard a little of his "seven steps or whatever the heck it is!"....you make some excellent excellent points.

i had first hand experience with a lyons certified trainer...kenny harlow, about 9 years ago. when i bought my tb (now 19) at the age of six, i learned a valuable lesson...NEVER pay for a horse until its on the trailer! we spent five hours, and a lot of ACE to get him on the trailer. obviously, something going on (and yes, two hours into it, my husband looked at the woman we bought him from, and asked for the money back...no deal --i wonder why!!!). upon getting him home, we spent countless hours, and countless cash with the local "best" trainers. none helped. i got excuses ranging from shoot him, to you need a trailer with a ramp (i had a step up).

i finally bit the bullet and called kenny harlow. best 250- i ever spent! in less than an hour, the horse was self loading...as in, throw the lead rope over his neck, point the dressage whip at his hip and say "load". this was probably the one lesson that has saved this horse...every time we are in a new situation, including going to New BOlton for surgery....all ihave had to do to get him through a door, into a room, a stall, ect. is point my finger at his hip, and say "load". so, there is some merit in working with these guys. Kenny, i trust....the rest, i can't speak of.

betsey

That's why I prefer Brannaman or Wolter; they are just guys interested in better horsemanship. No gimmicks, a "Buck Brannaman honda" is about all the toys you'll get. But I don't have a problem with some of the others trying to make a buck off their popularity. Heck I'd do it if I could but instead I'm just payin' to see them.

This is some interesting stuff. It has been a few years now, but my father in law bought the wife and me VIP front row seats to watch Monty Roberts. What a load! Sure, the guy knows how to use the round-pen, but I laughed when he touted how he came up with this new idea, this new way of thinking and handling horses. You know, that one our grandfathers taught us before we knew who Monty was? Growing up around sale barns and horse sales, I have seen many little "tricks of the trade," you might say. Things used in a sale ring to make a horse look way better than he is. Monty was REAL good at that. But that wasn't the ultimate let down. Nope. THe icing on the cake came after he started the first horse, the one that MOnty said had never been handled, yet had nicely trimmed feet and a bridle path. That made me laugh. What absolutely made us get up and leave was when he brought the second horse out and "started" him. The second horse was at a local sale barn only the week before and was sold to a local trader. How am I so sure that it was the same horse? The trader that had owned him has a son that heeled behind me at the arena at their house OFF OF THAT SAME HORSE!!!! I have an agreement with these folks. They let me practice on their steers, if I turn steers for them and I run the chute some for them to try out new trade horses so they can say that they have roped off of them at the sales. The horse that MOnty "broke" was typical of the 3 to four year olds you might find at local sales. He was misbehaving badly, probably from going through many sales with many different people yanking on his mouth, and the trader unloaded him. We are not sure how he was "loaned" out to MOnty for a show, but we did get a big laugh later on. We still use the words "join up" as a joke, or to poke fun at one another. Ex: "Hey, why don't you go and join up with that horse of yours and lets go to a roping tonight." or when in the pen working cows, maybe "You better watch that big snorting brindle cow, she'll come over there and join up with you!" Yep, that Join Up stuff is quite the joke. I agree that it is all about selling the halter that corrects all ground problems, or the bit that stops all issues that your horse has while under saddle. Bad part is, folks who don't know any better but really do want to be better hands sometimes fall for this crap. If you really want a good laugh, check out Monty Robert's "Buck Stopper" What a riot!!!!

I did see a real good hand start a horse once that truly had never been handled. I think his name was Sam Powell. I know the last name is right, no absolutely sure about the first name. He worked on the Cross Bell/Mullendore ranch in OK that Piebiter has mentioned before. He, too, seems to be just a regular guy. He doesn't have a line of designer halters or gimmick bits.

I think each trainer has something he adds to the process. Sure I too was also extremely dissapointed in Monty Roberts' method; they work good for gentling a horse to human touch (ive said that before), but for anything but a picture book you might as well use the pages in his books to wipe your butt with. Ive been to a Clinton Anderson clinic, and i own that colt starting video by Ray Hunt, but ive never bought one of the things those little gadgets they want you to sell. The shoes didnt make Michael Jordan, nor does the bit train the horse.

I just finished a book "Horse,Follow Closely" (Native American Horsemanship) by Gawani Pony Boy. It stresses relationship training and is very interesting. I am new to horsemanship and I try to educate myself on the various concepts that are out there. I have also read books by Pat Parelli and while I appreciate his methods they seem a bit difficult for the novice and the concept in Horse Follow Closely seemed to click with me as someone who will be simply a backyard hores owner. Anyone read this book and what are your thoughts?

Sorry...horse owner not hores owner!!!

kalo--

i havent read the book, maybe i should....but, i've seen Gawani at Expos and such. he doesnt really impress me---he's VERY impressed with himself (which is a huge turnoff), and again, i distrust anyone who says "you need to buy MY stuff to succeed"....

i truly believe that rather than chasing down these clinicians, who are not really clinicians, but entertainers at this point, someone who is trying to learn, should seek out good local help that can truly help YOU with building your relationship wtih your horse.

betsey

You know, Betsey, you are 100% right. After thinking about it a little bit, here is what I reallized....I have been riding since before I can remember and I am learning constantly and needing advice frequently. Spending most of my childhood with my grandfather, a cowboy by trade and a tie down roper on weekends, I found myself hanging around grey haired men all the time. Still do. I have to ask questions frequently and their "been there, done that" kind of knowledge has got me out of more than one jam. The other day, I had to go to an older hand that I have had the pleasure of working with for years to ask for help with a younger horse that I am riding. TUrned out to be a simple fix to a small problem, but a problem I have never had, seen, or heard of, none the less. BUt one of the older hands had. This problem wasn't on any video that I have ever seen. DO you think Monty or Pat would have taken the time to come watch me rope a few off of this horse to help me? I have always tried to watch the grey haired guys that are getting along good with their horses. The ones that are winning, or their horses ride really nice and quiet and look good doing it. I am currently helping a neighbor kid learn a little about riding. He moved in after his 17th birthday and saw me riding a colt and wanted to ride. He had NEVER even petted a horse before then. I showed him a few things and then hauled him to one of the older fellers for additional help. HE is over at my place three times a week with a new question. NOpe, a video won't handle that. We all have questions or problems that arise, no matter how long we have been around horses. A video ain't no where near as good as a good hand helping you in person. Even if the clinician were to take time to talk to you on the phone, how is he going to know you are doing it right? What if you have a question during the process? Are you going to tie your horse up, run back inside and get on the phone, "OK, here is what she is doing when I do that....."?? Take Betsey's advice and find a good hand locally to help. Usually a good hand will tell you if you have a problem they can't help you with, but they will also usually know who to call for help. It's better, I think. Like my Grandpa always said, "When you stop learning, or think you have it figured out, sell your horse and tack and take up fishing, because you are not doing yourself or the horse any good when you stop learning."

alleyrider--

you are sooo right. i think a big concern i have when i have seen these "clinics" at expo, ect. is that there always seems to be a ton of people there who are rather "clueless", and it scares me to think that they are going to watch this guy, buy some gear, and go home and attempt to recreate it!!

now, for katie (my daughter)we haul 2hours each way for her to work with debbie---debbie taught me to ride 20 years ago, and is STILL the best horse trainer ive ever met...her background is tremendous (including being one of the trainers at the King Ranch in texas years and years ago). what is neat, to me, is that debbie actually takes it as a complement that she is teaching my kids....

betsey

I've been reading a lot of books by the different trainers, and what I find confusing is that there is so much conflicting advice. One says to try this and another says to try that and that if you do what the first guy said, you're going to ruin the horse and so on ...

I've learned way more from watching my friend work with my horse, and getting lessons from him on what I should do in different situations. I watch him do it and then I do the same thing. I've learned so much that way, and am really growing in confidence. And he answers all my questions (and I have a lot of them). All that from a local horseman who has never done a clinic or put out a video. Go figure.

zubbycat

zubbycat-

no need to "go figure"!!!! your friend has what ever instructor/trainer should have...a commonsense approach mixed with patience. Enjoy everything your friend can teach you!!

how's the new pony doing????

betsey

I own Mike Kevil's book starting colts. I have been forced to watch the Parelli videos through 4h and trust me its not something I enjoyed.Sure, some of his ideas are good but really its just common sense. I was taught a John Lyonsish method to start my colt and between the the book and the 4H colt starting clinic that I went to that was plenty enough for me. I think you have to find something you like and go with it. Because some horses react better to some training methods then others. My sister has a mare that had been abused previously- using Parelli methods with that"carrot stick" ( i copuld pick one up aty the co-op for a heck of a lot cheaper and in any color I wanted) Our asst. Leader then is big into parelli - she ended up whacking daisy with the leadrope cause she was concerned that she would step on my sister (the same horse who I had been riding a week earlier when she spooked I got hung up and somehow had my head in between her two feet when all she wanted to do was run and never once stomped on my head)Even my dad was mad about that. He said it took those girls a year to get that mare that good and she goes and wrecks her in two minutes. my dad hates horses so its really bad when he gets mad about the horse. So yeah as you can tell I'm not a fan of Parelli and that is the main reason why. Its something that you have to find by yourself and something that you like.

True enuff, pick who you like. For me, the older I get...if my horse has an okay day & comes home sound, tired & content, and I didn't get bucked off, thumped, pounded on, run over, stepped on, sat on, kicked, slobbered on, rope burned, dally fumbled, or whiplashed, etc..then everything went pretty good & we'll hope for the same tomorrow. For horsemen help though, I'll stick with Buck & Joe.

I've read with great interest the recent postings on the various horse "trainers" I am a local horseman that conducts horsemanship clinics throughout Arkansas, Missouri and Oklahoma. There are thousands, well at least hundreds, of others like me that has a way with horses that like to teach and show others another way of working with their horse. I tell everyone up front that this is not the only way, but my way. Please take the concept and idea, use your training and background and knowledge of your horse, apply it and see what happens. I can honestly say that I have never had a clinic participant give a negative response concerning one of my clinics.

My rule that is absolute concerning any clinician, friend, or advise giver is to ask WHY? If they cannot explain fully why you should do something "their" way, don't do it. "just because" is not a good answer.

Everyone has a different personality, different baggage they are carrying and various skill levels. ONE size does not fit all. No one can start or ride a horse like Curt Pate, Buster Mcclary, or Craig Cameron because you ain't them, BUT you can apply their methods and way of working with your horse and make lots of progress.

This post and $1.00 will buy you a cup of coffee but it is my opinion.

quote:

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Originally posted by rafterMK:
Ive been to a Clinton Anderson clinic, and i own that colt starting video by Ray Hunt, but ive never bought one of the things those little gadgets they want you to sell. The shoes didnt make Michael Jordan, nor does the bit train the horse.

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Just want to set the record straight...Ray Hunt does not sell any kind of training equipment. I only post this becuase I don't like seeing Ray grouped with so many other clinicians that do expect you to buy their stuff. Ray doesn't believe in gimmicks...not even a basic martingale. I had the opportunity to ride in one of his clinics, and it was an amazing experience. Why do I like Ray so much? He's REAL. He wears spurs and uses them, if he needs to, and he'll flat out tell you, I don't care if you like me or not, I'm here to make things better for the horse. So is he the end-all of horse trainers? No. I believe you can learn something from everyone, even if it is how NOT to train a horse, which is what I've learned from some so-called "natural horse trainers."