OK, another measurement I didn't know. What does the below mean? (it's not gullet width, that's a diff. list on the page I got this from):

Bar Spreads:

5 3/4" Arabian

6" Regular

6 1/4" Semi Quarter Horse

6 1/2" Quarter Horse

6 3/4" Full Quarter Horse

Where is the bar spread measurement taken from?

Thanks

Well, I am afraid they are talking about gullet width here. A day or two ago I ran into the same website - and was astonished about the classification 5 3/4 -> Arabian as this often is called regular, and 6 and 6 1/4 often is called Semi.
I guess they called it bar spread to indicate that their tree naming is only based on the bar spread/gullet width and does not also include indications of bar angle, while this site http://www.horsesaddleshop.com/howshoulifit.html indicates a name (e.g. FQH bars) is associated with a certain gullet width and a (flatter than "normal") bar angle w/o being specific about the angle.
However, this can be very confusing since it does not seem that the tree names (reg.,semi, QH,..) are generally associated with the same gullet width.
At some other topic in this forum the saddle makers here have pointed out the "new"or more precise method for indicating a wider or narrower bar spread is measuring the bar distance at the handhold.
Darc, Flynnsaddle, could one of you , please, explain whether the name, let us say Semi-QH ,"only" refers to a specific gullet width (even if this measurement is outdated) or whether this also refers to a bar angle (just "steaper" or specific degree, e.g. 90°)and maybe also too a certain amount of rock. Thank you in advance!
Tosch

Your terms semi quarter horse , quarter horse etc. are all generic terms which have no consistancy from one style of tree to anohter let alone one tree maker to another . They are used to try to describe the angle of the bars. As the angle flattens out (wider trees) the rock and twist decrease for the flatter back. Traditionly tree width was measured accross the spread at the front of the tree where the bars meet the fork, this measurement is inconsistant because as the different forks thickness from front to back change( generally 3 3/4 to 5 ") the point where the bar meets the fork changes. This is why you can take a wade tree with a 6 1/2 spread and an association with the same 6 1/2" measurement and have such a dramatic difference in fit. Now if you were to have both these trees built on a 4" spread at the back of the fork and 90 degree bars they will both sit the smae on your horses back yet the association tree will only measure 6 1/4 at the front and the wade may measure 6 1/2 or more(please keep in mind the wade will sit lower because it is lower in the gullet height). This can get very complicated and confusing for a lot of people but by measuring the spread at the point where the bars and the fork meet on the back side then you have a consistant spot to measure from no matter what the fork demensions are. I will try to take some photos of two trees with identical bar structures yet because the fork is thicker on one of them the spread when measured from the front will be different. Darcy I will have to email them to you so you can post them for me..Thanks Greg

IMO, buy or build a saddle just like you'd buy a pair of shoes. Try'm on. If they fit, they're the right size if they don't fit they're not. I tried on 4 pair of size 13 shoes the last time I bought, only one pair fit but they were all size 13.

Gumby, Thanks for explaining the differences in gullet width and bar spread at the back of fork and the role of fork thickness in this so clearly.
Tosch

Thanks, Gumby. So based on what you wrote, a tree with a wider bar spread (IE a Full QH bar) will be a flatter rock, therefor may increase bridging on a horse that does not have as flat a back? Or am I not getting something?

The most important thing Gumby said was his first statement "Your terms semi quarter horse , quarter horse etc. are all generic terms which have no consistency from one style of tree to another let alone one tree maker to another."

There is no accurate way you can tell what the rock or spread/angle is on a tree measured by gullet width alone, eg 6 1/2" Quarter Horse.
As Gumby stated from one fork style to another this will change how a tree fits dramatically. This is why true custom made trees are measured at the handhole and use a bar spread/angle. If you click on this link tree measurments you can see where a custom tree is measured. I hope this info helps.
Another problem with a lot of production trees is when they change the gullet width, they do not change the bar width at the base of the cantle. Therefore if the front of the bars get wider the back of the bars will get narrower or vice versa.

A tree is one of the most important fundamentals of a good saddle, if the tree don't fit why even build a saddle on it? I guess this is the reason why all the top saddle makers use true custom made trees not cheap production crap. It does not matter how well made the saddle is, if the tree is crap the saddle is crap.

The saddle maker that built my saddle and I had lenghty discussions on the topic of how wide to make the bars. Even though I agreed with the idealistic notion that the saddle should be made for the horse, my concern was that I ride so many different horses throughout a year or two, I couldn't afford to buy that many and I wouldn't have room to store that many saddles. He then told me that since saddles outlast horses, that the saddle should be built for the type of horses I ride and not a specific horse. So far in the 10 years or so that I have had it and the 50-75 head of horses it has been on, I have only found two horses that it didn't fit.

I don't like the labels that the cheaper saddles come with ie, qh, semi-qh, etc. These are generic terms and don't mean much. I also like the Arab label. Most Arabs I have seen need a wider gullet than a narrower one. My advise is to contact the saddle maker you will be using and discuss they types of horses you own and plan on owning. Remember that horses with good conformation are easier to fit saddles than horse with poor conformation.

Flynsaddle, thanks so much for those pictures. They are without doubt some of the clearest I have yet seen. They will be very helpful when a client is ordering a saddle. You would think after these many years of tree making, that we would be better able to come up with a uniform system. On the one hand you would (maybe) know what you were getting, but on the other hand,some of the "saddle makers mistique !(Tongue firmly in cheek)

Those tree pix are great! Really answers a lot of my questions on tree measurments. Thanks

NW is correct. When you are saddle shopping or ordering a saddle you want to fit the type of confirmation you generaly ride. As a saddlemaker I am fitting an averge, not 100 percent speciffics. The onus is on the horse owner somewhat to fine tune the fit through minor adjustments in blanketing. When am I to custom fit the tree to your horse? when he is 3,9, 17 or 23? In the spring when he is fat and sassy and 100 pounds overweight from little or no use or in the fall after a long summer of hard use where he is fit as a fiddle and maybe even 50 pounds underweight? Change your body weight by 15 percent and see if your clothes don't fit different. The five star pads flynsaddle is recommending are deluxe pads but to take things further there is a company called Diamond Wool Products. They make hair felt, infact they probably make the felt five star uses. You can get thier felt pads at alot of shops and they are not expensive. These hair felt pads can be bought in different thicknesses(1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4" & 1"). For $100.00 or less you can have an assortment of thicknesses so that as your horse flucuates or changes you can adjust the amont of pad you are using with your blanket. You can even shave areas of these pads with a sharp knife or razor to relieve a pressure point if nessescary. A saddle that is built on a tree 4" wide with 90 degree bars will fit more horses than any other, bearing in mind you will have problems at both ends of the spectrum( very narrow high withered horse and very mutton withered horses).
When we are horse shopping we need to keep in mind what type of confirmation our gear is fitting so that we have no suprises when we get home with that perfect new horse.

Hi Greg,

here's the information and photos you asked me to post... I think part of the text you sent must have been cut off... sorry, all that was in your email is posted here.

The tree in photo3 is a wade, 4" handhold 90 degree bars 5" stock. It measures 6 3/8" at the front. Second photo is a taylor, 4" hand hole 90 degree bars, 4 1/2" stock. It measures 6 1/8" accross the front. I set a compass on the wade and then placed it on the taylor so you can see the difference. These two trees are different at this point yet the structure of the bars are exactly the same. If I were to have the taylor widend 1/4" so they were the same width at the front it would be 1/4" wider than the wade throughout the entire lenght of the tree. In the first picture, the wade is once again pictured. I have marked with a felt marker and am pointing to approx. the point of the bar wre the front would join the bar if the taylor fork was superimposed over the wade fork. Because of the flare of the bar, the narrower the measurement accross the front will be as the thickness ( or what we call the s

Flynsaddle, Gumpy,
thanks to both of you for providing the measurements/pictures. Same thing explained from different perspectives. Great, very clear now.
Tosch

[ January 19, 2007, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Tosch ]