As most of you regulars know, I have been working on Copper, my 3 year old, and he is doing very well, except he is THE LAZIEST THING I HAVE EVER SWUNG A LEG OVER!! He is laid back and "bombproof" as they say, which I should be thankful for I reckon, but getting him to keep a steady trot, and God forbid a lope, is a monumental task. I have resorted to riding with spurs now, which really dont seem to phase him at all. I always squeeze, smooch and then spank and/or spur to get him to trot/lope, and it almost always comes down to the swat and spur part. This is the same little angel who lugs on the bit, but is at least 95% more responsive than when I started with him. So my question is...does anyone have any suggestions how I might persuade sweet Copper to get a move on? Or am I just stuck with a dang lazy animal? LOL How many think this might boil down to a respect issue?

[ February 27, 2007, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: EtxCowgirl ]

If you have other horses that he hangs out with and they can be ridden ask someone else to ride with you and have them ride in front of you. Ask them to ride their horse at a pretty good clip and just liven your body up. See if your horse will follow along at the same speed. When he does liven up just-even if it's just a stride or two- go along for the ride and pet him as often as you can. Then have them slow down to a walk for a while then repeat. Pretty soon he'll get the idea of moving right out and you won't have to be the bad guy.

This works best if you're outside and have some place to go but can work in an arena setting also.

Paul

[ February 27, 2007, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]

Off in a different direction than Paul...is something bothering him, i.e. hurting, pinching, pressure point, too tight, etc that might cause enough discomfort that he doesn't want to move out willingly? Just a thought.

Crossed my mind already rr...checked him for that before, during and after our last two rides. No such luck! I was almost hoping...LOL

[ February 27, 2007, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: EtxCowgirl ]

That's a good thing. Then I'd agree with Paul about bringing up the energy in your own body to get his feet moving. It will take some work, but look for the smallest effort on his part and build on that each time. If you have a round pen to work in, you can take his bridle off and just work on getting movement while riding him. Doesn't matter where he goes or what direction, so long as he's moving out for you. Then you'll have no hands to ride with, just body position & language. I.e. how little does it take to get him to move, how deep a seat do you have to take to get him to slow his pace after he's moving, what happens when you shift your weight forward or backward, etc. Good luck.

I too have a mare going on 6 years old that has always been resistant to picking up the pace when asked. Like your's, she is bomb proof, quiet, willing to do anything I've ever asked. She just does not want to hurry. I loaned her out for about 6 weeks to a fellow, and when I got her back she weighed quite a bit less than when she left. In fact, she looked pretty bad. Not "arrest the fiend" bad, but I could see her ribs a little, and I didn't like it. So I went to the feed store and bought several bags of Purina Strategy, and put her on 2 1/2 pounds in the morning and 2 1/2 lbs in the evening, with all of the coastal bermuda she free-choices. Well, I rode her Saturday, after 1 month of this extra feed, and she was a new horse. Not high and stupid, she didn't loose her mind. But she wanted to go, she asked to trot and canter, and we had the best ride we've had in the 3 years I've owned her. She's alway been fed well, and even just a touch over weight if anything, but she never had any real energy, so excess movement was just plain ol' work. her weight has come up and she is looking good, so I am going to cut back on the Strategy soon. But I was wondering if this might be a little of the same problem you are having with your horse.

By the way, I also agree 100% with Paul and ranchroper on the training methods, and I would definately pursue their advice as well. Everything usually ties in together, and there is rarely one single answer to an issue.

Thanks you guys! This past weekend I had put him back into the roundpen and "moved his feet" quite a bit before I ever got on him, trying to keep him in a steady pace, and attentive to me. He worked fair for me, so I mounted up, did some bending and flexing and moved around the pen...more bending and flexing...and tried to quicken the pace, with the intention of moving on to keeping our nose tipped to the inside at a trot. Well, I had to abandon that and just work on TROTTING when asked...like someone suggested above...he did it a little bit, with his nose to the outside and his rear to the inside! This really aggravated me because of all the slow flexing work we had done, I guess I expected he would do the same pretty easily at a trot. NOT SO!
I have also considered changing his feed to something that will give him more energy. I have been feeding him a simple grain mix - mostly oats and corn and supplementing with corn oil. Recently I changed to a 10% light sweet feed mixed with a 12%protien/5% fat pellet. (Switched because of availability and price) He gets all the coastal hay he wants too. I figured this would give him all the energy he would need.

When I was competing in barrels with my other horse, he ate "Compete" which is Nutrena's brand comparable to Purina "Strategy". Copper had some of that when I first got him, and sweated a lot, so I took him off of it. I have considered feeding something like "Red Cell", which I also used to give my barrel horse. It always did the job for energy boosting.

Thanks again everyone for your suggestions. Keep 'em comin' if you have more!

When I used to rodeo, we were feeding my team roping horse Purina Hi Fat/Hi Fiber chunks. I found it kept his energy level up without having any of the "hot" problems associated with sweet feeds. It was easy to keep consistent weight on them too and we never had any digestive issues with it.

In WH a couple months ago Teddy Robison was talking about a horse he found for someone that was a real good horse but very laid back. To make a long story short he started feeding a high protein feed and the horse livened up. He went on to show the horse in reined cowhorse classes and won big time with him.

When you talked about feed it reminded me. Look back a couple issues and you'll find the article

Paul

Copper has been on Red Cell for about a week now, and it sure has improved his energy level. We rode through the woods this weekend, and he moved out great! I even got a gentle lope out of him! I havent taken him back to the arena for any work yet to see if he will give me the same effort for inside work, but I am pleased with the difference this supplement has made so far.
However, we have another problem now. I think Wireweiners mentioned on the saddle pads thread "bridging" of a saddle on her swaybacked horse...well, Copper runs downhill so to speak...his hips are higher than his withers... and this has caused my saddle to "bridge" I guess and caused lower back soreness in Copper. I knew I was in for a problem when I took off the felt pad Saturday after the ride and the only sweaty place was up around the withers/top of his shoulder! He gave me the "evil eye" Sunday evening when I ran the brush across his lower back! He was not feeling well there! Guess we will have to invest in a special saddle pad. Dang it...all my horses seem to have to have some kind of "special" something or the other! Anybody have any thoughts on horses that "run downhill"? A neighbor of mine said she had a young horse built like that, but he finally evened up in his confirmation.
Thanks ya'll!

Your question reminded me that I almost bought a nice young gelding named Copper but at the vet check he proved to be "neurologic." It would not be the SAME "Copper" as your horse (it was several years ago) and it does not appear to be the source of YOUR horse's "issues." However, neurologic horses are more common than I realized and could explain why some horses seem exceptionally unathletic. It is a VERY good reason to have a prepurchase exam, particularly if you have not bought a horse before. In MY Copper's case it was probably due to an injury at the trainer's - he fell & injured a vertebra in his neck while they were teaching him to stand while tied. A neck injury can affect nerves that control movement in the hind end. I would love to see an article about this condition in Western Horseman (or maybe they have done one & I missed it). If more buyers - particularly green ones - knew the condition existed & how to tell if a horse might be neurologic, there would be fewer disappointing purchases and probably fewer nice young horses punished for not performing up to snuff.

After riding who knows how many horses in my lifetime, I came to a conclusion long ago. A person can ride a fast horse slow but it is impossible to rie a slow horse fast.

PS: My horse is hard to fit too. Check out "Montana Mountain Horse" (they have a website) in Buffalo, Wyoming & talk with Melissa Sipe. She sent me a tree to try on my horse before I ordered my saddle & provided superb customer service all through the process. Their prices are QUITE attractive. Turnaround time was dazzling and I got an affordable saddle with all the goodies on my wish list that DIDN'T break the bank. And best of all it fits my horse! We are both grinning!

In reading this question, I found it quite interesting how complicated our assessment becomes.

I pose this question....if a mountain lion appeared in front of your horse, would he have to have been fed a high energy feed to have the gumption to get away?

Some horses need desensitizing, some need sensitizing. There are many details needed to know how to respond to this issue. We have to identify the problem from the horses viewpoint before we can decide on a course of action that will have the positive outcome we want to have happen. Some horses have a fear response to our interaction that is disguised by a lack luster demeanor or they go introverted. Some horses are the exact opposite and explode and then we respond in a manner that gets them to not be so sensitive to our actions or cues and is actually easier to work with from my experience. In either case, as confidence in our horse escalates in our interactions with our horse, so does the positive response to cues escalate. I'm interested in knowing more history about this horse to respond in more depth.

Good Luck and God Bless,
Curly

[ April 05, 2007, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Curly ]

Hi Curly! I will give you Copper's background and progress.
Copper was "rescued" from a cattle sale barn last May. He was very malnourished. He has since grown about another 1" or so taller and has gained nearly 275 lbs since then. He has always been very laid back, not easily spooked and pretty well behaved. However, the Copper Horse is not highly motivated most of the time. Since I made this post, he is coming along just fine though. The Red Cell gave him a bit of a boost, and my continued training with him has brought us closer to the understanding that I am the lead mare and he is not the boss! He is typical 3year old, a little playful try at a nip here and there, which I can usually catch coming, and head off with a hard bump to the nose, making him think "boy, that tasty looking arm sure hurts when I try to nip"! He lays his ears back when I bring the feed to the bucket, I guess in an attempt to bully me, but with my body language(or handy stick if needed), I back him off until I WANT to move from the bucket...just as any other lead horse would make him move out of the way. The ears are less and less flat every day, sometimes he even stands there waiting "cheerfully" as I pour in the feed. He is basically just a horse that still challenges my authority, both on the ground and in the saddle, and I try to make choices in my training that makes him think he has made some decision all on his own to do the right thing...you know...make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. He just has a hard headed and stubborn personality that requires a smarter training technique from me I guess. He will shut down if I dont ask in the correct way. He just stops listening and trys to bully me, or now he thinks that bucking might be the answer to intimidate me. He threw me about a month or so ago. I was very suprised because he didnt give much warning...I say not much, because I probably wasnt paying attention! Anyhoo, I got right back on him with a new attention level and have caught him 3 or 4 times attempting to go there again, once from a standstill. I am determined that once we work through this "stage" he is going to make a fine horse. Curly, if you have something else to suggest, I'm all ears...well...eyes technically!

[ April 05, 2007, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: EtxCowgirl ]

Howdy EtxCowgirl, that should have been in my first post.....my apologies.

I have a couple of thoughts....on the nipping how aggressive is it? If it's not very aggressive more like bein' real "lippy" I always just grab their lips alot...make it annoying. That way it's not aggressive but assertive. If he's "stubborn" he's probably very smart, that's never a bad thing,it's what I like in a horse. It does require you to search out the best positive interaction. I would suggest that you don't give it negative connotations....embrace it more positively and you'll have more fun with it then. I do like your reference to the natural techniques, pursue that aspect even more. He'll be a great horse once he knows you two are in sync and his reward is in the release of pressure. Then he'll respect you as a worthy leader and follow that leadership more willingly. The bucking could be resolved possibly with more pre-ride ground work, get him using his thinking brain and not his reactive side so much maybe before you start riding. Remember it's about being assertive not aggressive. Most of us get frustrated and then turn aggressive instead of just being persistant and assertive. Good leadership and calm persistance will pay off. Make sure you give the slightest try a relief of pressure....soon he'll respond to the slightest suggestion.

Have a great day!
Curly

His nipping is not very aggressive, that's why I think it's just the stage of life he is in, and it's one of his little "bossy tricks", that he tries to check me with every once in a while.
I do spend time with him on the ground before riding, making sure that he remembers that I can make his feet move, therefore I am lead mare!

Just a little funny side note: My nephew's pony came to live with us this weekend,and Copper is so excited that he has someone to push around, somebody's feet HE can make move!

LOL, that sounds like a home movie in the making!

Question dose he acts if he hurting, I've been around horses 50 years ,when a horse fights or won't do things it maybe he got pain's
I got a hurting horse a bad stone bruise ,soaking in emp. salts twice aday works the best
best of luck RED SMITH

After reading the previously posts, I think what you consider laid back and bomb proof is a horse that goes along if he don't mind doing what you ask him to do. Due to this, he appears lazy. I'd hesitate to put a lot of pressure on this horse to do something he really didn't want to do, unless I wanted a real rodeo.

I worked with lots of horses over the years that were bombproof, kid broke and all the other terms used by horse traders that the owner couldn't catch, couldn't load, get to trot or canter or respect them on the ground. Usually they would "sull up" when they didn't want to comply with the request and when pushed, buck or kick.

I strongly believe that riding is just leading your horse from its back. If you can't get the results you want from the ground, you ain't gonna get it from its back. Ground work is not "lounging" your horse is a circle or chasing him around a round pen. Ground work must have purpose and direction. Watch how horses move each other in a pasture, and work your horse the same way. This will position yourself as a leader. Be consistant and as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary. Concentrate on the little steps that make the big ones happen. As an example, to make your horse trot, you must have the front feet move when you ask, when you can consistantly move his feet when you ask, ask for more speed. You have to be able to walk before you trot, trot before you lope and lope before you run. The is a lot more to riding that just setting is a saddle and letting you legs hang down.

This is kinda a "shotgun" blast at your problem and I didn't mean to offend if I did. Typically, people look at the "big picture" instead of everything that makes up the "big picture".

There is no quick and easy fix, new feed, suppliments, magic mixes, special bits, exciting equipment will not take the place of a good training foundation.

One thing I just thought of is the saddle fit problem. About 60% of all problems is equipment related, the balance is operator error.

Copper will be the best horse he knows how to be. He has no ego or no hidden agenda. He is just a horse.

Thanks for the reply, Peaeye.
I do understand exactly what groundwork is, and we do it before every ride. I find that I get a better response working him off the end of the leadline than from the round pen. He still wants to kick out at me every once in a while when I ask him for a lope on the line, whether the saddle is on or not. That just makes his feet have to change direction more often and quicker. His attitude is quickly adjusted with this approach. This kicking out business has all but disappeared, but he checks me out every once in a while, just to be sure it's still not okay to do that. Every day is a learning experience for the both of us!
You're right, Copper is L-A-Z-Y. He gets "pissy" when asked to anything that exerts some energy, or doesnt get his way. This is probably the way he is going to be...just his personality. However, it is not okay for him to be disrespectful or dangerous, and I dont put up with those things one second. Copper is level-headed, not easily excitable, or hot-blooded...whatever you call it. It is easy to get him to act from his thinking side, not his reactive side, but he is just like a teenager in that he has a little problem with authority!
Thanks again...no offenses taken!

Don't be in a hurry to unsaddle after your workout either. It won't hurt this horse to stand tied quietly both before and after he works to help drive home the message that there is a time for work and time for play. You should be able to go about your business while he has some quiet time to just stand there until you decide the workday is over. That will help during your rides as well, some horses figure out quickly that it's only a short flurry of activity until you "go away" and leave them alone. Same goes for just sitting on him after the workout and letting him learn to relax. You should be able to relax too, and have him just stand there quietly while you sit in the saddle and think about your session. Good luck.

I must snicker at that, because poor ol' Copper sure wishes for a day where there was a "short flurry of activity" and I would "just go away"!
He hasnt wised up too much, because he still comes running when I call!
I usually get off of him in different spots in the pasture too. Sometimes I ride to the barn and dismount and get back on, sometimes I get off way in the back and walk him back to the barn and quit. I like to keep him guessing. I also haul him down to different parts of my community and ride him. I really want to put him on some cattle now - nothing serious - just getting him aquainted to a herd of bovine activity. He is gonna be one of those that needs a job to do every day! I will take your advice and leave him tied for a while...that part I dont do much of.
Thanks!

Building patience in your horses is important for working cattle. Having them learn to stand stand quietly teaches patience, and they'll learn to appreciate the downtime during work/play days. Have fun.