Hi,

My horse is 3 years old and is usually a pretty good horse. He had good ground manners and was fine with ground work when I took him to get broke. Now he's not the same in the least bit.

I got my horse back this past monday from an amish guy who had had him for three months and was suppose to be breaking him and of course doin' ground work with him as well. He said he was one who tried to pattern himself after the clinition(sp?) Clinton Anderson - Downunder Horsemenship. Which was good to us because that's who we like as well.

Well yesterday I had a vet come out 'cause he was breathing funny. She said it had a lot to do with him breathing in dust from dusty hay, oats, or just from the barn(he's always in the pasture when he's home). Also, he's quite skinny. When we took him he wasn't that skinny, he was a bit on the fat side, but, still healthy. Now on his back he has pretty much just bone up around his whithers and shoulder blades. Not to mention his hip bones stick out a bit. The vet said it looked to her like he hadn't actually been worked in about a month.

We did all kinds of ground work before we took him. I mean he was trained well enough, even if he did it with him a couple of times a week he would have not forgotten. But now he remembers nothing we taught him(so it seems). I'm having to start from scratch.

I guess my actual question is, today I rode him for about 15 to 20 minutes. After awhile he would back but he just would not move forward at all. I kept clicking him and tried kickin' his sides, holding pressure to his sides while clicking him, turning him in circles to move his feet, nothing worked. All he'd do is back, or stand still, mainly back! Would someone have some advice to get him to move when I need him to move forward? Would you use spurs?

I've lunged him and worked with him everyday since we brought him back home. He acts like there is respect there for me when I'm on the ground, but in the saddle he barely turns an ear back to me when I'm talking to him.

If you would please give me some direction and/or advice on this I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks so much for your time. Sorry so long.
~ Hillary

Hello Hillary,
It sounds to me like a classic "this saddle HURTS!"issue...especially if he has lost weight.
Often times, if a horse refuses to go forwatd under saddle, it might very well be because of one of 2 reasons...the saddle is causing pain in in his shoulders and or back...or he may be cinched to tight...or both.
It is very likely your saddle dosn't fit him...even if it did at one time. And being he is underweight now, he has no natural padding to help cushion the saddle either.
Honestly hun, I would not even condsider riding him again until you have his weight back up and he is heathier. This should also help with his atitude and learning/ desire to learn and or please you.
For help with saddle fitting, you can ask many of the more professional folk here...or go to Kellie Sharpe's Awareness Saddle Fitting yahoogroup...I highly recommend her.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Awarenesssaddlefitting

Hope that helps some.

Thanks for your reply. Looking at his back after we take the saddle off his entire back is wet with the shape of the saddle. Granted it's been in the 70's or so here temp wise. Is that normal? I can't remember what it's suppose to look like, since it's been awhile that I've been down at my friend's house to ride.

Also, another thing I was wondering about, he plays and messes with his bit constantly. My sister had the amish guy that broke him order the bit for us. But turns out it's not even the bit he trained him in. He trained him in a d-ring snaffle, and gave us a broken tom thumb. It seems like half the time he's messing with his bit and not listening to me.

However if I'm on the ground beside him and he starts, I flick him on the side on the mouth and tell him to stop, because he throws his head up when playing with it when I'm riding and has come a little to close for my liking with his head and mine. Of course that's when I try to turn him to get him to go. Just trying to find a way to take care of that problem.

Anyway... again thanks so much for the help. Oh, and any idea if some western or farm and home stores might trade a saddle if I'd pay any difference on one that fits?

Again I can't thank you enough.
~ HIL

Hello again Hillary,
That one paragraph says alot. I would like to recomend you throw that bit in the trash and go back to a true snaffle...he is not ready for another bit yet, IMO, and te Tom Thumb could be the cause behind your problems..or at least a partial cause, if nothing else. Please read this webpage:
http://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm
It makes a lot of sence!

Did you ever join Kellie Sharpe's Awareness Saddle Fitting yahoogroup? She can tell you alot about your horse and saddle...just upload lots of pix of both into the album over there...she's smart as a whip.

How's your boy doing now, weight wise? Don't fret...we'll get him figured out yet.

Mustang Blue,
He's doing better on his weight. I started giving him adult feed/grain (safe guard by nutrina) and since we have been working him every day except for sunday, he has gotten more build on his back, so it looks to me. It doesn't dip in as much as it did around his whithers when we first got him back.

Oh, and today we went and got a sweet iron snaffle which we will try on him tomorrow. Also, we were lucky enough to stumble across the man that sold the bit to us. He trains horses for a living (and works the store of course). We didn't know about him since the store we ended up goin to is quite aways from here. Anyway, we talked to him, told him our problems we had been having, and he said if we wanted to to bring our horse, tack and ourselves(my sisters and I) to his house and he'd see what was going on. To see whether it was us, the horse, or the tack or a little of some or all. But, we'll see what my dad says.

Also, these last few days, when I lunge him he lowers his head, touches his nose to the ground and stumbles on his feet. He walks like he's drunk or something. Anything to worry about?
Thought I'd share that with you.
~ HIL

Just my opinions here:

1. There is only one Clinton Anderson, if a person wants Clinton to train their horse, take it to him. All trainers are different even though they might have read all of Clinton's books and watched all his videos. Their is a John Lyons "certified" trainer near me. She is no John Lyons.

2. The Amish are not good horsemen as a rule from what I have seen. They can be abusive and will "go to the whip" early and often.

3. Anybody that takes a horse in for training that arrives in good shape and sends it home with the hip bones sticking out and the back bone sticking up is no trainer as far as I am concerned.

4. If the horse was stalled and lost weight and has breathing problems, my guess is that the hay fed was extreme low quality and the horse was forced to eat all the dust, dirt, and weeds in an attempt to survive.

5. If the horse is underweight and is locking up, my #1 suspision is that there is a lot of back pain.

6. Stop lunging the horse. An over abundance of lunging makes a horse resistent and creates more problems than it solves.

Thanks for you comments and oppinions NW and Mustang blue. I really appreciate it!

I've stopped lunging him, and have started round pen work. It just took a bit to get the stuff to put it up.

I'm starting him over completely. Like when I first got him when he was 1 yrs old. I still put a saddle on him and walk him around with my sister on his back and put a bit in his mouth as well. With the round pen work going on, I seem to be gaining the respect and trust of him. He's not pushy and seems to go forward fairly well. I plan on working my way up to actually riding again, as in without a leadrope on him. I hadn't been/worked with him for a few months myself, it was my sister, since I was in MO. I had lost the bond that was once between him and I. I now seem to see that bond coming back. I won't ever leave him again like that though.

I am now trying to figure out if worms are bothering him. I'm having trouble identifying the worms I found in his droppings. I've looked on the internet for pictures and can't seem to find them. They are white, have little heads on them and have long skinny bodies. They are about an inch to inch and a half long. They kind of look like bean sprouts in a way.

It might be me watching too carefully, but it seems like he looks back at his stomich a lot. The other day i went out and he was laying down kind of making a gunting or groaning sound, laying his muzzle on the ground (well more like dangling)while looking at his stomich every once in awhile. He did this yesterday as well, both times I put a halter on him, pulled him up and walked him around. After a bit he passed droppings and seemed fine. Which all of this is not too normal for him.

First thing that came to my mind was colic, but then I found those worms. He seems to have no trouble with bowl movments and passing gas, so I wasn't sure.

I did worm him about a week and a half ago, but haven't found any worms except what was in one pile of droppings.

If someone could give me some advice on this I'd appreciate it.

I don't mind comments or suggestions on the other subject above either.

Thanks so much for your time.

What ever else you do, take your pony to a good Vet. If he's been to a Vet take him to another Vet. Get the Vet to check his back. Have him check his gut. Get him tube wormed. IMO, until he's healthy changing bits or going to a different trainer is a total waste of time.

Sometimes one deworming isn't enough; if you think it's worms, I'd suggest, depending on what the Vet tells you, deworming him again .... it certainly won't hurt him, and if you've still got worms in his droppings after having done him once, it'll probably help. I'm not sure what kind of climate in which you live: where I am, with freeze-up approaching, I generally worm for bots with an ivomec in early fall, as well as other worms (the large and small strongyles) and then another shot of ivomec just after permanent freeze-up, usually mid to late November. This is in addition to the normal spring and summer dewormings.

I just bought a 2 yo colt, and though the owner didn't tell me this, another who knows her quite well advised me the colt probably hadn't had shots or deworming at all this year. So I dewormed him twice - 2 weeks apart, and he's doing fine.

Hee, South Texas, I worm at least every 3 months. My current pony gets wormed every month and a half. We done get much freezing weather and insect pests are a real problem.

The first order of business should be getting your horse back to weight, and staying off of him until he is.

Next, check his feet. Make sure that everything is sound down there, and also check for sores in his mouth, body, etc.

If you havent done so already, have a reputable vet check him out.

From what you have described, my opinion is that he is in pain, and physically not up to doing what you are asking of him. Give him supplements along with his regular diet, in addition to deworming and making sure that his shots are in order.

You need to talk with people in your area, and find out who they recommend as a trainer. Study the trainer that you plan to use: are they forceful and do they use physical punishment in their teaching, or are they patient, and reward the horse as neccessary? Anyhow, hope that this has helped you.

Thank you to you all for giving your advice and opinions! I appreciate it very much!

My horse is slowly gaining weight back. I've had him on about 1 and a 1/2 cup of oats and 1/3 cup of corn twice a day now for almost 3 weeks now. I'm wanting to get a suppliment for him but there are quite a few brands to choose from in the store. Which one would ya'll suggest I use?

Something I was wondering about is my friend lives in Missouri and he said you can't buy small and/or large stronyles dewormer now in MO. That the vet has to come out and give it to the horse through the nose.... ever heard of this? I bought dewormer that included taking care of the strongyles.

Again thanks!